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Randy Johnson

Definitely not ashamed. People like him never are. I've been constantly amazed at the brazen lies flowing from his mouth. He's not stupid though. He knows too many people are lazy. Even the ones computer savvy won't do the very simple search to learn the truth. He counts on it.

He's appearing in High Point this weekend and, being a Republican, I received a robocall invitation to attend. Can't even bother to have a live person on the other end of the line. Last election, even Elizabeth Dole, had a telemarketer making calls to encourage peoeple to vote for her. Didn't do her a lot of good(I think it was the fake voice saying "there is no God" that did it).

The sad thing is that people are buying into Romney's nonsense. Both friends and family members seem to believe every word he utters. My efforts to counter them don't seem to do a lot of good.

Not that it matters. I don't think he has much chance anyway, even with Paul Ryan on the ticket, Or possibly because of Ryan's presence.

Jeff Mariotte

I don't think Ryan helps him at all. To win, Romney would have had to move back toward the center, like he did when he won in Mass. Picking someone who just pushes him farther right might help keep Republicans from staying home but it doesn't do anything to attract independents, and the argument now--keep Medicare or turn it into a voucher system, actually address the debt or keep cutting taxes for the rich--favors the Democrats. I think Romney had to do it or else lose his base, but now he has cemented the base (who would never have voted for Obama) at the expense of the rest of the electorate. It was a desperate move, and a losing one.

Cnsieler

So the lies are only on the republican side? Sigh

Jeff Mariotte

I'll be glad to post any lies that President Obama tells, Chris. Just let me know what he says, and what the truth is.

The sad fact is that Governor Romney is lying more often and more outrageously than any presidential candidate in my lifetime. He is simply not an honest man. To me, that's a disqualifier for the presidency. I don't know if it is to you, but I couldn't back a candidate who is so shamelessly dishonest.

Cnsieler

I do not want to do that because I would rather do issues. Most of the time "lies" are parsing of the tidbits you want the people to believe, that are only watching in the few key states that they are going to put all the commercials in.
A good example is the ad that you mention. I read the lawsuit and some other sources ( I can not think of it right now, the Tampa newspaper that does the picnocci's ) anyway that is a long winded way to say that you were right in this posting.

I just do not feel confrontational.

I believe fundamentally that we need to change the direction we are going.

But we need to demonize (fill in your choice here)

Jeff Mariotte

I don't think that lies are unconnected to the issues. They ARE an issue, especially when they're as constant as Mr. Romney's have been. And they're muddying where people stand on what issues. Protecting the right of Americans to vote is as important an issue as there is. The president is trying to do that, and Romney is lying about what he's trying to do, while providing cover for those who would take away that right from people who are legally entitled to exercise it. That's a big issue.

This week (and I will be posting about this), Romney has been lying consistently about Medicare. Protecting Medicare, and keeping the system solvent, is a big issue. People will, quite literally, die before they otherwise would have if it's taken away or made too expensive. But by disguising who is really trying to do what, Romney is making it harder for people to make informed decisions about that issue.

So lies are destructive to the national interest because they make it hard for people to know what Gov. Romney would do as president, and what President Obama would do in a second term. Finally, electing a president is not just about where a person stands on given issues; it's also about the character of the people seeking the office. Gov. Romney has revealed, through this process, that he is utterly dishonest, willing to say virtually anything to win the job, but without telling us where he really stands and what he really has in mind (on how many issues now has he said he can't tell us what his policies would be until after he wins the election? That doesn't really lead me to trust him). A guy who will flat-out lie--making up things that he knows are not true and saying them over and over--is not a guy I want in the nation's top job.

And I'm sure you're not meaning to say that even if Obama were lying, too, that the fact that they both do it makes it okay for either one, right? Isn't lying lying? Isn't the truth worth knowing?

In this case, though, they're not. Obama might be spinning and stretching here and there, as all politicians do. But I've been watching them both very closely, reading speeches and interviews, etc. Only one of these guys is lying consistently and about big, important things, just like only one party is actively working to suppress the vote in states around the country. You might not like those facts, but they are facts. And facts are important. The truth is important.

Cnsieler

Using Polifact is a Great Standard

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/

 

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/rulings/pants-fire/

 

Obama's statements by ruling

Click
on the ruling to see all of Obama's statements for that ruling.


True92
( 23%)
(92)
Mostly True92
( 23%)
(92)
Half True101
( 26%)
(101)
Mostly
False47 ( 12%)
(47)
False58
( 15%)
(58)
Pants on
Fire6 ( 2%


 

Pasted from <http://www.politifact.com/personalities/barack-obama/>


 

 

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/mitt-romney/

Romney's statements by ruling

Click
on the ruling to see all of Romney's statements for that ruling.


True23
( 15%)
(23)
Mostly True21
( 14%)
(21)
Half True43
( 28%)
(43)
Mostly
False26 ( 17%)
(26)
False27
( 18%)
(27)
Pants on
Fire14 ( 9


 


Pasted from <http://www.politifact.com/personalities/mitt-romney/>

 
So the President has lied 212 times

Some of the Presidents Lies

Says Mitt Romney would deny gay people the right to adopt children
Mitt Romney "says the Arizona immigration law should be a model for the nation."  

"Under the Romney/Ryan budget, interest rates on federal student loans would be allowed to double."

Says Mitt Romney "backed a bill that outlaws all abortions, even in cases of rape and incest."
Says he could be "the first president in modern history to be outspent."

Half truths
Says Mitt Romney "paid only 14 percent in taxes — probably less than you."

Says Romney would add "trillions" to the deficit while Obama would "cut the deficit by $4 trillion

And So on
 
 

Mitt is slinging them also

 
 
Compaigns throughout History have been rough

Read McColloughs Book on John Adams

http://articles.cnn.com/2008-08-22/living/mf.campaign.slurs.slogans_1_jefferson-family-sally-hemings-vice-president-jefferson?_s=PM:LIVING

 
http://www.freakonomics.com/2007/11/06/the-complete-history-of-dirty-politics-a-qa-on-anything-for-a-vote/

 
 

"chronicles the campaign smears, attacks, and misdirections that have typified U.S. elections since George Washington‘s win in 1789. The upshot of Cummins’s book: campaigns are no dirtier now than they were in the past."

 
 

 
"Both parties at different times in American history have been guilty of mind-boggling attempts to influence elections. In the 1880s, one of the worst decades in terms of dirty tricks, Republicans sent bagmen to Indiana — then a pivotal state — with hundreds of thousands of dollars in two dollar bills (dubbed “Soapy Sams” for their ability to grease palms) in order to purchase votes. The 1960s was the era of Democratic dirty tricks — in 1964, Lyndon Johnson oversaw one of the most corrupt elections ever, against Barry Goldwater."

 

 
I am not a crook


I did not have sex with that woman

 
 

 

 
 
 

Cnsieler


The Republican
Party's attempt to dienfranchise voters.
Oh Boy
You have to show a photo ID to buy beer and cigs but somehow showing an ID makes Dems not vote?


I have to show a Photo use my debit card
 


 
from the back of my voter ID Card just sent to me in the mail.
List#1 Sufficient Photo ID including name and address (One 1 required)


Valid Arizona Drivers License or non-operating identification.
Tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification


Valid US federal, state or local government issued identification
 


List#2 Sufficient ID without photgraph bearing name and address
Utility Bill that is dated within 90 days of the election


Bank or credit union statement
Valid AZ vehicle registration
Indian census card


Property tax statement
Tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification
Vehicle insurance card


Valid US federal, state or local government issued identification
Voter Identification card/Recorders Certification


Any "Offifical Election Material " mailing bearing your name and address
 


So how does this dienfranchise voters?
 
I want to have some stadards to vote.  Even a Homeless person with no job can get some of the items on the list above.


 

Who can register to vote in an Arizona election?a CITIZEN of the United States of America a RESIDENT of Arizona at least 18 YEARS OF AGE by the next general election

NOT a convicted FELON, unless civil rights are restored NOT adjudicated INCOMPETENT (A.R.S. § 14-5101)
Arizona will give you an ID card for 12 dollars
 

I think in Arizona most licenses do not expire...
 
I just do not get how voter ID laws dienfranchise voters (especially democrats)

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Chris Sieler <cnsieler@gmail.com> wrote:

Using Polifact is a Great Standard

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/

 

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/rulings/pants-fire/

 

Obama's statements by ruling

Click
on the ruling to see all of Obama's statements for that ruling.


True92
( 23%)
(92)
Mostly True92
( 23%)
(92)
Half True101
( 26%)
(101)
Mostly
False47 ( 12%)
(47)
False58
( 15%)
(58)
Pants on
Fire6 ( 2%


 

Pasted from <http://www.politifact.com/personalities/barack-obama/>


 

 

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/mitt-romney/

Romney's statements by ruling

Click
on the ruling to see all of Romney's statements for that ruling.


True23
( 15%)
(23)
Mostly True21
( 14%)
(21)
Half True43
( 28%)
(43)
Mostly
False26 ( 17%)
(26)
False27
( 18%)
(27)
Pants on
Fire14 ( 9


 


Pasted from <http://www.politifact.com/personalities/mitt-romney/>

 
So the President has lied 212 times

Some of the Presidents Lies

Says Mitt Romney would deny gay people the right to adopt children
Mitt Romney "says the Arizona immigration law should be a model for the nation."  

"Under the Romney/Ryan budget, interest rates on federal student loans would be allowed to double."

Says Mitt Romney "backed a bill that outlaws all abortions, even in cases of rape and incest."
Says he could be "the first president in modern history to be outspent."

Half truths
Says Mitt Romney "paid only 14 percent in taxes — probably less than you."

Says Romney would add "trillions" to the deficit while Obama would "cut the deficit by $4 trillion

And So on
 
 

Mitt is slinging them also

 
 
Compaigns throughout History have been rough

Read McColloughs Book on John Adams

http://articles.cnn.com/2008-08-22/living/mf.campaign.slurs.slogans_1_jefferson-family-sally-hemings-vice-president-jefferson?_s=PM:LIVING

 
http://www.freakonomics.com/2007/11/06/the-complete-history-of-dirty-politics-a-qa-on-anything-for-a-vote/

 
 

"chronicles the campaign smears, attacks, and misdirections that have typified U.S. elections since George Washington‘s win in 1789. The upshot of Cummins’s book: campaigns are no dirtier now than they were in the past."

 
 

 
"Both parties at different times in American history have been guilty of mind-boggling attempts to influence elections. In the 1880s, one of the worst decades in terms of dirty tricks, Republicans sent bagmen to Indiana — then a pivotal state — with hundreds of thousands of dollars in two dollar bills (dubbed “Soapy Sams” for their ability to grease palms) in order to purchase votes. The 1960s was the era of Democratic dirty tricks — in 1964, Lyndon Johnson oversaw one of the most corrupt elections ever, against Barry Goldwater."

 

 
I am not a crook


I did not have sex with that woman

 
 


 

 
 
 

Jeff Mariotte

It would be easier if you used punctuation, Chris, as this is hard to read. But okay, let's look at Politifact (which I think is a pretty poor source, but it's one a lot of people use).

Romney's "True" rating is 15%. His "Mostly true" is 14% So 29% of the things he says are somewhat true? The rest are some kind of lie?

Obama's "True" rating is 23%, and his "Mostly true" rating is also 23%. That gives him a 46% somewhat true score. Almost 50% is much better than almost 30%, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that comparison.

By the way, adding up Romney's "Mostly False," "False," and "Pants on Fire" ratings, you get 44%. Obama's only come to 29%. So Romney's lies far outnumber his truths, whereas with Obama his truths far outnumber his lies. Doesn't look good for your guy.

As for your specific examples, it's hard to judge those because you didn't provide specific quotes or tell us if the candidate himself said it, or his campaign, or an unassociated SuperPAC ad. In my Romney series I have only been reporting on things Romney himself actually said with his own lying mouth. A candidate can't control the stupid things his surrogates says, and he can approve ads but doesn't always say the words that are in them. That's why the standard I use is that Romney has to actually say it out loud.

Can you provide examples of Obama saying that Romney wouldn't allow gay couples to adopt, or that he thought SB 1070 was a model for the nation (although the bill's author is one of Romney's top immigration advisors). I'm pretty sure Obama has said that he's likely to be outspent, and I'm also pretty sure that's true. Plus, he was saying that it's likely, not that it's definite, since obviously the campaigns aren't finished yet. So how is that a lie, exactly?

And how is saying that Romney paid 14% in taxes a lie? Romney just said he checked his records and he has been paying 13% for the last ten years. As a percentage of income, that's less than you and I pay. So that one sounds true, too. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/08/16/romney-says-he-paid-13-percent-in-taxes-for-the-last-10-years-that-doesnt-tell-us-much/

Admittedly, no one knows for sure how much the Romney plan will add to the deficit, because he won't say what his plan is. But the best independent analysis of that plan. The CBO says that extending all the Bush tax cuts will add $4.6 billion to the deficit; Romney wants to keep those but then cut taxes another 20%. That's a pretty bad hit to the deficit. Obama, on the other hand, has already reduced the deficit from where it was when he took office, and his plans (again according to CBO scoring) reduce it further.  http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/08/14/romneys-budget-plan-is-a-fantasy/

If you want to point out lies, that's fine, but tell us exactly what the president said that was untrue, and then tell us why it is untrue. Otherwise you haven't proved anything.

One more thing--I never said no other presidential candidate has lied. I said in my lifetime, Romney has lied more often, more flagrantly, and about real, substantial issues, more often than any other major party candidate. That, sadly, is not a lie--it is 100% factual.

Jeff Mariotte

And again, surely you're not saying that voting is no more important than buying cigarettes or beer, are you?

Jeff Mariotte

Arizona is not one of the states in question, Chris.

But look at Florida: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/florida-gop-takes-voter-supression-to-a-brazen-new-extreme-20120530

Pennsylvania: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/08/15/692521/pennsylvania-voter-id-upheld/

Wisconsin: http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/rulingedit-hn4i76v-142555875.html

Texas: http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/03/texas_uses_voter_id_case_to_launch_assault_on_voti.php

Ohio: http://www.thenation.com/blog/169284/ohio-early-voting-cutbacks-disenfranchise-minority-voters/

Here's a nationwide wrapup: http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/2012_summary_of_voting_law_changes/


People died to win the right to vote. Soldiers have gone to war to protect America's freedoms, and foremost among those is the freedom to vote.

This blog watches these laws carefully: http://electionlawblog.org/

There simply is NO voter impersonation fraud happening (http://www.truthaboutfraud.org/pdf/TruthAboutVoterFraud.pdf) . And yes, in many areas, people don't have state-issued ID cards. Why does a 90-year-old woman need a driver's license? Was there even a birth certificate issued when she was born in her parents' house? You're talking about legitimate voters, people who have been voting for decades, and all of a sudden, when there is no fraud happening that this will affect, it's important to change the laws? That's nonsense, and I'm surprised that any reasonable person would tolerate it. It's an assault on our most basic democratic right.

Cnsieler

Sorry about the the formatting. No I believe that some effort must be made by the voter to be prepared to vote. I do not believe both parties are serving the nation. Both sides are conducting dis honest compaigns. Let me read your references.

Cnsieler

http://electionlawblog.org/
First glance that is a great reference.

Second Jeff you are blessed with the gift of the spoken word. I just try to keep up.

thank you for your kindness and I will try to answer.

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